Tuesday, November 8, 2005
Is this what 12-steppers call the ‘denial’ phase? (1:19 pm)
In Panama City, President Bush told the Panamanian press that the U.S. is pursuing terrorists “under the law.” He emphatically denied that U.S. forces—including the operators of overseas secret CIA prisons—engage in torture of detainees.
“We do not torture,” President Bush stated flatly.
Bush, of course, stands behind VP Cheney in his attempt to exempt the CIA from the proposed Senate ban on torture.
Somehow, all of this must make perfect sense in their heads. Either that, or they’re just betting on more collective denial from a dysfunctional country.
We’ll be meeting for the intervention in the Oval Office, everybody … don’t let on that anything’s going on. Be gentle but firm. Step 1 for Bush & Co. is to get them to say the following: “We admit that we are powerless over our addiction to war, and we’re really, really making a mess of things.”
p.s. “We really do torture people.”
posted by Silja J.A. Talvi
Reader Comments
i agree that trying to undo the geneva conventions is the height of backwardness (altho, what the hell else have i come to expect from bush & friends?). in the (i feel) highly unlikely event of some “countdown to doomsday scenario”, does anybody really think we wouldn’t be torturing the ass off the guy we thought might know something about how to stop it, regardless of whether it was “lawful”, or produced useful intelligence or not? if the situation were really dire enough, i bet most people wouldn’t even raise a fuss, or it could be covered-up (which is what you’d expect from any halfway competent government anyway, isn’t it?), but this rewriting of laws to try to move us back closer to the dark ages is really sickening…i’m not even of the opinion that none of these prisoners deserve harsh treatment, but knowing that the government is in charge is knowing that some percent of those held are innocent…& what recourse do they have, or would you or i have (for these are only the first rosemarys baby-steps in an evil direction) when the rule of law (good, old-fashioned, bill of rights LAW) becomes just the law of whoever happens to rule? (& if that’s not the truly frightening scenario, & you don’t think this country has any bigger problems than islamo-terrorists, & you don’t think the troglodyte ideaology of our ruling class will affect your american dreams….well, congrats, & maybe i’m just hitting the bong too hard….)
posted by Dave on 11-9-05 at 3:09 PM
What i would really like to see is for terrorists to *think* we will torture them. If they really thought we would, i suspect many (perhaps most) would crack from the *fear* of torture.
That said, i am against *actual* torture for several reasons. The primary is that i would not want us (the US government) to be closely associated with those who would actually inflict the torture. Another reason is that if the fear of torture is not sufficient, than i doubt that actual torture would be effective (i doubt studies have been done, but this is plausible to me). And there is always the nagging doubt that you might be torturing the wrong person. . .
Lastly, i think that smearing fake menstrual blood on prisoners, having women act seductively around prisoners, depriving them of sleep for many hours (48?), stress positions and use of threatening dogs (bark but no bite) does NOT constitute torture. Of course, these type of techniques should only be used on the worst of the group (such as the French/Algerian 20th (failed) hijacker).
posted by wolf on 11-10-05 at 10:24 AM
Torture 101 - Course Outline.
“Oh, when first we do deceive….”
The “TORTURE” issue goes to the heart and soul
of the “conspiracy to lie” in support of justifying
attacking Iraq. The torture is KEY to the mechanics
of the thing. “Manufactured facts” in support of
the “Big Lie” of Joseph Goebbels and Adolph HItler
infamy is what underlies the entirety of the Bush
conspiracy.
If the White House loses its ability to “wash” false
and fraudulent “intelligence,” that has been deliberately
manufactured through employing torture at the field
level—the ultimate “source” of the manufactured
disinformation and lies in support of the war—this
white House will be unable to sustain the lies it
needs to survive.
Lies don’t “end;” once the lying starts, there is
always yet another lie that must be told to uphold
the last lie told. Think of what the White House is
doing as something of a “disinformation Ponzai Scheme.”
ULTIMATELY, and in the end, the entirety of the house of
cards must collapse.
Bush and Cheney are so over the top, so hopelessly
mired in, and trapped, in their own web of lies and
deceit, that they have been put in the preposterous postion
of PUBLICALLY LOBBYING FOR LAWS TO LEGHALIZE TORTURE.
THAT’S how desperate they are at this point. they are
on the verge of being “found out” and just don’t know
“what to do.” Older criminal investigators call this
end-stage phenomenon the “Trick Bag.”
Wnen the target goes into the “Trick Bag,” no matter
WHAT he does or says, he only goes DEEPER into the
status of “being caught.” Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld
are—at this point—“desperate men” and dangerous
as cottonmouth water moccasins.
THINK about it: WHEN, in the entirety of American
History, have BOTH the President of the United States
AND the Vice President of the United States PUBLICALLY
LOBBIED FOR pro-torture laws??????????????? So, WHY
NOW?????????? WHAT DOES YOUR COMMON SENSE TELL YOU
THAT CHENEY WAS DOING OVER AT THE CIA, DAY AFTER DAY
AFTER DAY???? WHY DO YOU “THINK” DONALD RUMSFELD
SET UP A NEW AND SEPARATE “INTELLIGENCE ENTITY” INSIDE
THE PENTAGON????????? They NEEDED a “credible
intelligence entity” to “rely on” and cite as “authority”
in order to “support the public lies” to trick America
into going to war.
The CORE co-conspirators are: George W. Bush, Dick
Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld. EVERY MEMBER of the
Iraq Group inside the White House is legally a
co-conspirator who acted “in furtherance of” the
objectives of the conspiracy—i.e., to effect
a war against an oil power in order to derive
PROFIT—profit from the oil and profit from
the bogus rehabilitation of destroyed national
infrastructure in Iraq.
REFRESHER COURSE IN HOW TO USE TORTURE TO MANUFACTURE FACTS
TO SUPPORT A “BIG LIE:”
1.From the Office of the VP, let it be known, over
at CIA, or at some other “intelligence entity,” that
some “facts” are “needed.”
1.Capture a Mohammad. “Any” Mohammad will do.
2.Employ some mild torture on Mohammad. Mohammad
will say anything you want him to say, so long
as you do not hurt him any longer.
A.“Help” Mohammad “remember” some “details”
to BOLSTER Mohammad’s credibility. An
intellience “report” MUST contain some
cross-checks and some “reality” or else
the report is no good.
B.If Mohammad does not pan out, get “another
Mohammad.” Sometimes you get a stupid
Mohammad; but, if you keep at it long
enough, you can in fact FIND yourself
a “SUITABLE MOHAMMAD.”
3.AFTER you generate your “now credible” report, submit
it up through NORMAL channels—DON’T do anything
“unusual,” or “suspiciious,” that is “out of the
ordinary” and that, if discovered by a Congressman or
member of the Press, would cause the report to immediately
become “suspicious.” Everything must “appear normal.”
4.Ultimately, of course, the bogus report wends its way
up through the ranks to the “man who needs it” —
in this instance, Cheney. Just like Daddy Bush ran
the Iran Contra operation for an intellectually
challenged Ronald Reagan, so, too, Cheney is the
wise old man who is running the Iraq Caper for an
intellectually challenged George W. Bush.
The only problem here is that Dick Cheney is not
as smart as George H.W. Bush and does not possess
the intelligence skills of Daddy Bush, who really
DID run the CIA for a time; so Cheney will make
some stupid mistakes—like “getting scared and
lobbying for pro-torure laws.” Remaining cool and
calm whilst in the middle of undertaking a criminal
endeavor to conclusion was never one of Dick’s
hallmarks. Daddy Bush was the real deal; Dick Cheney
ain’t no decorated bomber pilot who got shot at; in
fact, Dick Cheney is a draft dodger six times over;
the idiot son, George W. Bush is also a draft dodger. These guys don’t know what the term, “cool under pressure,” means.
5.Cheney reviews the report. It must be co-ordinated with
“press” and “press conferences”—tested for
“credibiilty.”
6.If the report is not “tight enough,” the report is
sent back down, and poor Mohammad is dredged up
again from his holding cell and his feet beaten again.
A.Mohammad must be “helped” some more to
“remember” some “more facts,” “correct” some
details that he may not have remembered so
well the first time.
7.And so on, and so on, and so on, ad infinitum. by the way, all this gets a bit rough on poor ole Mohammad; but Cheney and Bush, in the end, get some “facts” supplied by a credible “intelligence,” and with it, some “plausable deniability” to shove in a prosecutor’s face.
See how that works? Simple.
posted by Lester on 11-10-05 at 6:38 PM
Few, if any, have bothered to consider just WHY Cheney is pushing for torture when the intelligence agencies of every country admit that it is useless at providing accurate information. Just WHY Cheney is willing to lower the reputation of the US even further in world esteem? Just WHY Cheney is so DAMNED DESPERATE to keep torturing?
My answer to “why” is at http://briandeford.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-torture.html
posted by Brian de Ford on 11-10-05 at 10:28 PM
Remember because they are connected at the roots, the aspens will all turn together.
Cheney’s ‘we do torture’ logic is the best way to get Libby to spill the dope.
And Cheney can continue to make winter jack-booted nazi fashion statements in famous torture camps like Auschwitz.
posted by Pink Ink on 11-12-05 at 10:03 AM
What would really concern me is if this bunch begins to show an interest in LAMPSHADES
posted by rmb on 11-15-05 at 11:45 AM
It’s nice to see that are at least 2 or 3 other people in this country that are becoming afraid of the agenda that we see in action on behalf of the ‘American People’, courtesy of the people you were foolish enough to elect. I won’t even comment on the apparent vote larceny that went on in the last two elections.
Inertia is the enemy here friends…sloth, procrastination, lack of initiative. Individualism to the point of insanity.
You elect these Cheney’s and Bushes into power, and then fret about the crass, evil, horrible, insensitive, ignorant acts they conceive of between golf sessions, fishing expeditions and prostate exams.
You vote for sharks and piranhas, and then despair over the fact that they act like sharks and piranhas.
What is wrong here?
posted by minerva on 11-17-05 at 4:43 PM
minerva - i would hazard a guess that those most disturbed by this issue are people who did not vote for Bush.
I think that those who hold strong individualist viewpoints would be on both sides of this issue.
Do you think it is impossible to be informed and ethical/moral and still be for the war? In my case, while i would have rather stayed out of it altogether, i was very bothered by the deaths caused (mostly to children) by the UN/US sanctions. Worse, to have repealed them would have given Saddam the ability to pursue things that i would rather he not pursue (it was bad enough he was brutally killing his own people - some by shredding them! - and paying terrorists to kill Israeli’s).
Both leaving things as they were and going to war were bad alternatives. I really don’t know which was the worse of the two, even now (even before i knew how corrupt the food for oil program was). To this day, i have never seen an alternative that was clearly better than what we did. . .
posted by wolf on 11-17-05 at 6:06 PM
I appreciate your sentiments…I think that the present state of affairs is a consequence of a long sickness….
what could be the cure?
posted by minerva on 11-21-05 at 10:53 PM
minerva - i don’t know what the cure might be. But what i would like to see is a party rise up and reframe the discussion.
First i would like to see a champion of the “less is more” philosophy. Do we really need all the gadgets and gizmos we waste our dollars on ($400 for an X-Box!)? Do we really need to have massive numbers of cars that consume huge amounts of oil? Conservation has never been glamorous, but it has always be eminently practical. (On a personal note, i believe everyone that is not poor should save 10-25% of their incomes.)
Second, i would like to see the working and middle classes be more robustly supported, at the expense of the rich and the non-working lower classes. I think everyone should work if they are capable. I think it is a crime that people can pass on vast amounts of wealth to their heirs, and now without it even being taxed!
Third i would like to see a real energy policy. One that embraces renewable energy sources and uses nuclear, at least as a stopgap. We need to disengage from the Middle East and ALSO provide an alternative for the rest of the world to do so. This is a project worth funding in the 10’s of Billions of dollars, beginning tomorrow.
Fourth i would like to see more dollars for education at all levels. I would extend this to allow everyone a chit for a 4 year post high school education (including Vocational/Technical schools), if they got passing grades. Plus much better funding for the least of the schools, often found in inner cities.
Fifth i would like to see the US commit to a level of foreign aid much larger than it presently supports. Perhaps 3-5% of all tax revenues, not as loans, but as development projects throughout the world. A good will type of offering.
Next a serious discussion of national health care.
There is more, but neither party seems interested in issues like these.
posted by wolf on 11-22-05 at 5:27 PM
wow, I guess I should check my hotmail account more often.
Thank you for the humane and intelligent response…I am now very interested in hearing your thoughts on national health care. ( I am a Canadian nurse, working in the US on a Trade Nafta visa, so I have a perspective that is influenced by my own circumstance)
posted by minerva on 11-27-05 at 1:08 PM
This entire Bush presidency has been torture. Lord, have mercy.
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Ha!
Alright… this is REALLY starting to irritate me. At the very least, the measure still passed in the Senate 91 to 9 (I think)... but, in the words of John Stewart, “That’s right… NINE US Senators did not vote to ban torture.” (I may be paraphrasing)
How can we even BEGIN to talk about human rights when we condone these practices, and create secret prisons in which to commit these atrocities?
posted by Apollo on 11-9-05 at 9:44 AM