Thursday, November 24, 2005
Happy Thanksgiving—now spit out that bird! (1:24 pm)
China’s Xinhua reports that multiple cases of avian flu have been reported in Canada.
Mmmmm….tofu.
posted by Jessica Clark
Reader Comments
Tofu is not fit for human consumption by the way. I tried it once and promptly spat it out.
posted by David in Canada on 11-24-05 at 5:29 PM
Tofu is fit for human consumption. The hormones in corporate meat cause cancer,
early puberty, and other disease.
A person eats for nutrition, not for taste,
that is, if they are smart.
Your “taste buds” exist in your brain.
By the way, even tough i am vegan, i adore
organic turkey. also tofurky, and tofu jerky, even though it’s kinda quirky.
posted by leftcoast vegan on 11-25-05 at 1:39 AM
Hi Leftcoast Vegan
I agree with you about hormones in corporate meat. Nasty stuff.
I eat free range and hormone free poultry. Same for eggs. Directly from a couple local farmers with “backyard” flocks. An organic poultry farm has just started up nearby and I will visit them soon.
Did you click on the “tofu” link I provided above. Some interesting reading about soy and soy products.
posted by David in Canada on 11-25-05 at 9:29 AM
Click here for more info on soy foods
posted by David in Canada on 11-25-05 at 1:52 PM
soy allergy info here ... well documented
Soy seems scarier than avian/bird flu. And just as scary as hormones and medications in corporate meat. And just as scary as the wide variety of preservatives and trace amounts of herbicdes and pesticides many people get in their daily diet.
Read labels on commercial salad dressings, soups, and many other processed foods. It is everywhere. Don’t eat garbage.
One of many nasty things in the nutritionially useless and harmful food that makes up so much of so many people’s diets.
Simple is best. Make it yourself from raw and healthful ingredients.
For our survival: after air and water is food (excepting that man or woman does not live by bread alone).
posted by David in Canada on 11-25-05 at 11:08 PM
... that ingredient would be love.
posted by David in Canada on 11-25-05 at 11:09 PM
I loves my Boca burgers & Boca pizza since adopting a completely beef free diet. Soy milk is great, too. Could it be that the beef and dairy industry is behind the anti-soy advocacy? Who can you trust, really?
My doctors suggested 30% soy in the diet. I lost thirty pounds in only a few months and I’m keeping it off. Also eliminated alcohol and reduced sodium intake so now those expensive high blood pressure pills are no longer necessary.
Hydrogenated soybean oils, marargine and trans fats are another matter and should be eliminated entirely.
You choose your poisons.
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=1,1998,0, ,0,1,0”>
posted by Tim Christopher on 11-27-05 at 10:59 PM
Does anyone remember the Swine Flu scare during the Gerald Ford administration? “Duck” and cover, anyone?
posted by Tim Christopher on 11-27-05 at 11:20 PM
It’s fine to speculate about who you can trust. Educate and trust yourself. Certainly keep in mind who benefits from the message but try to figure it out for yourself. If the matter is questionable due to conflicting evidence then it is best not to partake and hold judgement in abeyance. I have satisfied myself that there are better options than soy and that soy should be avoided.
30% soy?? How do you do that?? My own diet is about 30% leafy greens (purple greens and other weird greens too), 25% beans/legumes, poultry, eggs, cheese(no other dairy), occasionally other meats, 20% vegetables and grains, 15% nuts and fruits, 10% other stuff like beer, whisky and other poisons ... as you say we choose our own.
Good to here that you are doing well. I have a friend who is an almost lifelong vegetarian and for several years a hardcore vegan. Soy foods made up a large part of her diet because she believed the hype many years ago ( My how question in the preceding paragraph is somewhat rhetorical as I have seen someone eat as much soy as you do). Anyways, she ate soy. Tofu in all sorts of clever ways and other soy products like soy milk, miso, beans, etc. Now she and her doctor blame her thyroid problems and other health problems on soy. Especially since when she cut soy out of her diet she started to get well. An individual case. We all are different. Some maybe more sensitive to some poisons more than others.
We seem agree that trans fats and hydrogenated oils in products like margarine and commercial salad dressings are very bad. That is good to hear. Read more about soy. It’s your health. Be well.
posted by David in Canada on 11-28-05 at 11:06 PM
... one correction for Dairy ... My diet also includes butter. So the dairy I exclude is really only milk. I use cream every now and then too.
Ahh .. the poisons we choose.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 12:41 AM
But the cheese and butter I buy is organic. Greens, eggs, rice and beans always organic and some fruits and vegetables, poultry too.
Good to make as many organic choices as you can.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 12:49 AM
And I drink raw milk , cow or goat, if I get the chance. So my “no other dairy” comment was not very accurate and needed this clarification.
ITT needs more health and food related essays and articles. I have enjoyed this discussion.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 3:16 AM
Is that all you’ve got? A couple of lousy web sites warning of the dangers of soy? You know, there’re web sites for every occasion, every opinion, any reason. And I didn’t find anything particularly alarming there… I’m not pregnant or expecting to be and I don’t think I’m particularly sensitive or vulnerable to the possible extreme side effects mentioned that are allegedly associated with soy. There are possible side effects associated with just about anything you put into your body, you know. I think the benefits of including some soy in the diet far outweigh the possible risks mentioned in those rather dubious web sites you offer. And you may be the healthiest eater on the planet but it seems to me that your choice of alcohol drinking negates your credibility as spokesperson for a healthy diet while reducing to zero any gains you might have made with your other food choices.
posted by Tim Christopher on 11-29-05 at 12:53 PM
Is that all I’ve got?
What have you shown us so far? A link to a story about a boy meditating.
I would not characterize the web sites I linked as dubious or lousy. The last one I linked has over 100 references to real doctors and scientists and clinical studies. That is called good evidence and factual. If I posted more links would it change your mind? You seem to have made your choice and are sticking with it. That’s fine. I am just sharing a some information and my own perspective.
Do you really think that because I have the occasional beer that my credibility as a spokesperson for a healthy diet is negated?
Shall I post a link to some credible and factual information that shows otherwise? How about this :
Cheers.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 2:23 PM
As far as presenting evidence - I wasn’t the one making accusations about soy consumption - I wasn’t the Buddha in the middle of the road.
You wrote:
“My own diet is about 30% leafy greens (purple greens and other weird greens too), 25% beans/legumes, poultry, eggs, cheese (no other dairy)”
Then you write:
“.. one correction for Dairy ... My diet also includes butter. So the dairy I exclude is really only milk. I use cream every now and then too.”
And then finally:
“And I drink raw milk , cow or goat, if I get the chance. So my ?no other dairy” comment was not very accurate and needed this clarification.”
Sounds like a make up diet - or perhaps you should include a Ginkgo Biloba supplement in your diet for that memory problem. You also went from drinking wiskey to drinking only an occasional beer. Give me a break! And talk about alternatives, there are far better alternatives to what miniscule benefits certain scientists make claim may be gained from drinking alcohol.
posted by Tim Christopher on 11-29-05 at 2:50 PM
As far as presenting evidence - I wasn?t the one making accusations about soy consumption
I presented evidence, good evidence with references to back it up.
But you previously said :
I think the benefits of including some soy in the diet far outweigh the possible risks
I was hoping for some evidence of these alleged benefits that you have evaluated and supports your contention. Sorry if I sounded a little cheeky when I referred to the Buddha Boy story you linked. It was interesting and even more so when you said : I wasn?t the Buddha in the middle of the road.
You said : Sounds like a made up diet
It is called being honest. I forgot to mention butter and I do use it. I wanted to get a plug in for raw milk which I drink only a few times a year when I visit farmer friends who have raw milk on the table. Again, just being honest. Maybe I will consider a Ginkgo Biloba supplement for my memory problem. But not just on your say so. I would spend some time researching it first.
10% Beer and whisky and other poisons. A little jocularity there. Some are more poison than others. This last category was meant to be a catchall for the foods and drinks that didn’t fit into the previous categories. It does not mean 10% of my daily intake is beer and whisky. Are you being obtuse on purpose? I should have mentioned olive oil,coconut oil, salt, pepper and other items here too. I could have included the occasional chocolate bar, potato chips and a few other poison items as well. Did not want to bore you with more details but it appears you do find them interesting.
The percentages I listed for the various categories are loose. Give or take 5% if you like. Don’t hold me too them, tomorrow I may discover that I am sick of eating a salad for lunch everyday and substitute some vegetables or fruit to mix it up a bit.
You say : there are far better alternatives to what miniscule benefits certain scientists make claim may be gained from drinking alcohol
Yes, there are. But better alternatives do not make fair alternatives into bad choices.
As you said : You choose your poisons.
I have researched the subject and have come to the conclusion that there are better alternatives than soy and that soy should be avoided.
I would be happy to look at any evidence of the alleged benefits of soy that you would care to present.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 6:30 PM
Avoid soy . Some repitition of portions of previous articles linked but this one has references.
Clinical Study Finds Soy Supplements Don’t Reduce Hot Flashes from the Medical College of Wisconsin. Here is a quote :
But some of the health claims for soy and soy supplements are based on anecdotal and indirect evidence, and remain to be tested in clinical trials.
Keep in mind these are doctors, professors and researchers who are not trying to sell you soy. They are just investigating, experimenting and publishing the results. If soy was beneficial I am sure they would say so.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 7:03 PM
I did a search for benefits of soy. Found lots of web sites suggesting that soy has benefits and asking how much soy I want to buy.
Found this FDA article that talks about the possible benefits but weighs them against legitimate concerns. Mostly pro-soy tone to the article but some warnings too. Here are some quotes :
“While isoflavones may have beneficial effects at some ages or circumstances, this cannot be assumed to be true at all ages. Isoflavones are like other estrogens in that they are two-edged swords, conferring both benefits and risks.”
“There’s a lot of emerging data and it’s confusing. In the meantime, we should be cautious.”
See ... caution. Benefits and risks.
Eat what you will. I am all for free will and exercise my will all day every day.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 7:23 PM
You wrote: “better alternatives do not make fair alternatives into bad choices.”
The idea of achieving health benefits from alcoholic beverages is preposterous. You really need to see the big picture to understand though, something you’re obviously not willing to do.
One thing about those bogus web sites, they’re usually produced by or indirectly serve independent entrepreneurs trying to create a niche for themselves by creating the illusion of an evil empire and themselves as the saviors, fighting the good fight for you, the consumer. And it’s the same old story whether it’s religion, government, or consumerism. Do you really think “Ford has a better idea?”
And web sites should always be taken with a grain of salt. It’s not uncommon to discover upon investigation, that doctors and experts listed as references in these web sites are found to be non existent or their materials taken out of context. The bottom line is that soy products are approved food items and have been on the market long enough now to produce a good track record as a healthy alternative to fat and cholesterol laden dairy products when chosen wisely and in moderation.
Here, a University of Toronto doctor mentions this fact and also points out, as have I, that not all soy products are created equal: “Eat Your Soy, Boy”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article e/2004/05/04/AR2005033109963.html
posted by Tim Christopher on 11-29-05 at 7:33 PM
Anyways ....
I don’t want this to turn into a pissing contest to see who can link the most research for their side of the controversy.
But if you have something interesting to share, besides Buddha Boy , I would be happy to partake.
I am still standing in the middle of the road but willing to move over a bit to let you pass.
Peace. OK?
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 7:38 PM
One thing about those bogus web sites
Excuse me? The link I provided to the study on red wine and beer is legitimate.
Please tell me which, if any, link that I provided that looked bogus to you and I would be happy to reconsider.
You really need to see the big picture to understand though, something you?re obviously not willing to do.
Not at all. I have said several times I am willing to consider anything you have to offer.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 7:43 PM
I read the article you posted Tim. Thanks for sharing it. I was pleased to note the references to at least some of the risks such as hormonal and allergy problems but it neglects to mention other risks.
You said ” all soy products are not created equal “. I guess you meant the references to soy sauce (mostly salt) and raw soybeans (dangerous) mentioned in the article.
But it also made me think of this summary that was at one of the links I provided :
Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe
To summarize, traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products is problematical, especially when they form the major source of protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of serious problems.
Indeed, all soy products are not created equal . I think I may even experiment with some recipes using traditional fermented soy ingredients like miso, natto or tempeh ... but not soy milk or tofu.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 10:23 PM
Definitely no soy protein isolate or textured vegetable protein.
Fermented soy only please.
And, in the interests of accuracy after more research, it appears that most tofu and soy milk are unfermented but there is fermented tofu and soy milk too.
I have had miso before when my vegetarian/vegan friend was cooking dinner and enjoyed it. Not sure if I ever tried something with natto but after reading some recipes I think I will enjoy it as well.
I never ate much soy products except at the urging of my vegan friend to try it and did not like most of it. When she got sick and then got well when she removed soy from her diet I found it interesting and did some reading and filed soy away in my brain as bad .
Now I study it again, thanks to this discussion with you Tim, and learn something I did not learn last time.
Some soy good. Some not soy good.
Another good link here:
Fermented soy only please.
So miso and natto will go on the grocery list along with a few other ingredients when I find a good recipe to try.
posted by David in Canada on 11-29-05 at 11:17 PM
Famous Buddhist saying… “If you should meet Buddha along the [road], KILL HIM!”
You wrote that you regularly consume “whisky and other poisons…” so allow me to speculate that one of your other poisons might include marijuana smoking, judging from your memory lapses and somewhat disorganized and superfluous writing style. (no problem)
Certainly you’ve been advised by doctors that smoking MJ is bad for your health, that there are female hormones involved here also… hey, my boys are still marching along after all these years, how about you? You will agree that there are negative aspects of this consumption but that the benefits outweigh the risks both assumed and speculative.
Two roads…
http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/
http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/effects-of-marijuana.htm
Other examples of such duality might include the controversy of artificial sweeteners or the use of Stevia (I sometimes love adding a pinch to my green tea with light soy milk—yum!)
But getting back to a fundamental issue here—that modern dairy farming is problematic to the environment and methods have become dependent upon the use of antibiotics, growth hormones, and other bio-management chemicals that inevitably end up in our bodies, too. That these dairy products are also laden with artery clogging fat and cholesterol, contributing to heart disease and many other physical problems.
So soy products are one of the alternatives in providing necessary proteins and that help sustain a certain level of creature dietetic comfort - without the beast of burden (though I might admittedly balk at tofurky jerky!)
But I also appreciate your concerns and I sympathize with your friend though I am aware that other factors could more directly be associated with the pathology of the condition you mention. And I thank you for this discussion as it encourages me to seek out other alternatives and not become too dependent on these increasingly seductive soy products. Bon app?tit.
posted by Tim Christopher on 11-30-05 at 12:24 AM
Regular does not mean daily or in excess.
I have a fine memory. Working on superfluous.
You speculate correctly. On occasion I have been known to partake…
Yes doctors, and parents, have so advised. I am in good health. Marching double time.
Yes the <i> benefits outweigh the risks both assumed and speculative.
Duality. Yes.
Don’t get me started on artificial sweeteners or sugar. I like green tea too. I sometimes throw a bag or two of a red zinger flavor to mellow the green tea flavor out.
Commercial dairy farming, cattle, chicken, pork etc are all problematic as you say. The whole commercial food industry has become a frankenstein monster that is not giving the people that eat their products good health. It is making many people sick.
Soy products are an alternative. I prefer others but am going to try a little fermented soy like miso or natto.
I appreciate your concern and thank you for the sympathies. The discussion has been fruitful. Thank you.
posted by David in Canada on 11-30-05 at 1:18 AM
I used some miso in a a french onion soup. Miso added a salty and rich flavor. Very tasty.
posted by David in Canada on 12-4-05 at 2:22 AM
o think that margarine can kill you
posted by ashley on 2-13-06 at 9:35 AM
Margarine can kill you it causes cancer (veggy oils do ) nad it is woorse if it has a low or non-fat label because it just needs that much more chemiclas in it to make it that way
posted by Concerned Viewer on 2-13-06 at 9:38 AM
Should I book through an agent to get a hotel deal? This really depends on where on the world you want to travel, what time of year you want to travel, and how far in advance you can book your hotel reservations. You already checked the popular travel web sites. Try checking the hotels’ web sites directly. Sometimes, you can get a better deal by booking directly with a hotel than through a booking agent.
http://www.ok-travels.com/
posted by abramo on 3-11-06 at 6:53 PM
Yeah,
that deasis should be stopped. Now and forever!
http://rolexcollect.awardspace.com
posted by Alex on 3-11-06 at 7:43 PM
I’m using just natural product only an d not any artificial food. Keep good health is hard and expensive in our days.
http://bloggerseo.journalspace.com
posted by George Bert on 3-27-06 at 4:34 AM
I have had miso before when my vegetarian/vegan friend was cooking dinner and enjoyed it. Not sure if I ever tried something with natto but after reading some recipes I think I will enjoy it as well.
http://www.u-blog.net/bestlink/skin/note.html
Avian Flu (aka bird flu) has been around forever. I have friends who were raised on poultry farms and they tell me so. Some years are worse than others. It is nothing new and certainly nothing to be scared of.
Mostly hype.
Hoax and scam are also words that come to mind.
Have no fear. Enjoy your Thanksgiving Turkey with all the trimmings and your Christmas Goose too.
posted by David in Canada on 11-24-05 at 4:43 PM